Jannik Sinner caught using doping!

[Kalevi Kolttonen]

Hello there!

I just read today that Jannik Sinner failed
a doping test twice in March, 2024. He got
away with it with the following reasoning:
They claimed Jannik had a wound in his
finger, and his physio put some stuff into
the wound to speed up the healing process.

Apparently this "stuff" contained some kind
of forbidden substance.

Is this credible?

It's not that I care much. I know almost
all of them use amphetamine or its derivatives
anyway. Plus many other advanced performance
enhancing drugs that cannot be detected in
doping tests.

br,
KK

[Kalevi Kolttonen]

Post by Kalevi Kolttonen
I just read today that Jannik Sinner failed
a doping test twice in March, 2024.

Here's a link:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/aug/20/jannik-sinner-cleared-of-wrongdoing-failed-anti-doping-tests-tennis

br,
KK

[Scall5]

Post by Kalevi Kolttonen

Post by Kalevi Kolttonen
I just read today that Jannik Sinner failed
a doping test twice in March, 2024.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/aug/20/jannik-sinner-cleared-of-wrongdoing-failed-anti-doping-tests-tennis
br,
KK

There is a common denominator between Sinner and Simona Halep; coach
Darren Cahill.

Did either knowingly take a banned substance? I have no way of knowing.
I hope not because I like both players.

[Hunter's laptop]

Post by Kalevi Kolttonen

Post by Kalevi Kolttonen
I just read today that Jannik Sinner failed a doping test twice in
March, 2024.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/aug/20/jannik-sinner-

cleared-of-wrongdoing-failed-anti-doping-tests-tennis

Post by Kalevi Kolttonen
br,
KK

Everyone deserves a second chance

[poster]

Post by Kalevi Kolttonen
Hello there!
I just read today that Jannik Sinner failed a doping test twice in
March, 2024. He got away with it with the following reasoning: They
claimed Jannik had a wound in his finger, and his physio put some stuff
into the wound to speed up the healing process.
Apparently this "stuff" contained some kind of forbidden substance.
Is this credible?
It's not that I care much. I know almost all of them use amphetamine or
its derivatives anyway. Plus many other advanced performance enhancing
drugs that cannot be detected in doping tests.
br,
KK

if he didn't do anything wrong why does he lose his IW money and points?
the whole thing stinks. no wonder he was "injured" at wimbledon - it would
have been hugely embarrassing for the sport if he'd won. Kyrgios is not
impressed.

[*skriptis]

On Tue, 20 Aug 2024 16:26:13 -0000 (UTC), Kalevi Kolttonen wrote:> Hello there!> > I just read today that Jannik Sinner failed a doping test twice in> March, 2024. He got away with it with the following reasoning: They> claimed Jannik had a wound in his finger, and his physio put some stuff> into the wound to speed up the healing process.> > Apparently this "stuff" contained some kind of forbidden substance.> > Is this credible?> > It's not that I care much. I know almost all of them use amphetamine or> its derivatives anyway. Plus many other advanced performance enhancing> drugs that cannot be detected in doping tests.> > br,> KKif he didn't do anything wrong why does he lose his IW money and points? the whole thing stinks. no wonder he was "injured" at wimbledon - it would have been hugely embarrassing for the sport if he'd won. Kyrgios is not impressed.

What do you mean "he didn't do anything wrong"?

He was doped at Indian Wells, of course he's supposed to lose money and pts earned there.

But if it was not his fault, then it's ok for him to continue as if nothing had happened, you can't ban him going forward.

[Whisper]

Post by poster

Post by Kalevi Kolttonen
Hello there!
I just read today that Jannik Sinner failed a doping test twice in
March, 2024. He got away with it with the following reasoning: They
claimed Jannik had a wound in his finger, and his physio put some stuff
into the wound to speed up the healing process.
Apparently this "stuff" contained some kind of forbidden substance.
Is this credible?
It's not that I care much. I know almost all of them use amphetamine or
its derivatives anyway. Plus many other advanced performance enhancing
drugs that cannot be detected in doping tests.
br,
KK

if he didn't do anything wrong why does he lose his IW money and points?
the whole thing stinks. no wonder he was "injured" at wimbledon - it would
have been hugely embarrassing for the sport if he'd won. Kyrgios is not
impressed.

Because he had the illegal substance in his system and thus his
performance was enhanced. Not fair he keeps points and $ while
illegally enhanced. They are saying it's not his fault so that's the
extent of the punishment.

[Pelle Svanslös]

Post by Whisper

Post by poster

Post by Kalevi Kolttonen
Hello there!
I just read today that Jannik Sinner failed a doping test twice in
March, 2024. He got away with it with the following reasoning: They
claimed Jannik had a wound in his finger, and his physio put some stuff
into the wound to speed up the healing process.
Apparently this "stuff" contained some kind of forbidden substance.
Is this credible?
It's not that I care much. I know almost all of them use amphetamine or
its derivatives anyway. Plus many other advanced performance enhancing
drugs that cannot be detected in doping tests.
br,
KK

if he didn't do anything wrong why does he lose his IW money and points?
the whole thing stinks. no wonder he was "injured" at wimbledon - it would
have been hugely embarrassing for the sport if he'd won. Kyrgios is not
impressed.

Because he had the illegal substance in his system and thus his
performance was enhanced.  Not fair he keeps points and $ while
illegally enhanced.  They are saying it's not his fault so that's the
extent of the punishment.

I'm with Kyrgios. They should do the old witch test. Toss him in the
river. If he survives, he's guilty. If not, he was not guilty.

[PeteWasLucky]

On Tue, 20 Aug 2024 16:26:13 -0000 (UTC), Kalevi Kolttonen wrote:> Hello there!> > I just read today that Jannik Sinner failed a doping test twice in> March, 2024. He got away with it with the following reasoning: They> claimed Jannik had a wound in his finger, and his physio put some stuff> into the wound to speed up the healing process.> > Apparently this "stuff" contained some kind of forbidden substance.> > Is this credible?> > It's not that I care much. I know almost all of them use amphetamine or> its derivatives anyway. Plus many other advanced performance enhancing> drugs that cannot be detected in doping tests.> > br,> KKif he didn't do anything wrong why does he lose his IW money and points? the whole thing stinks. no wonder he was "injured" at wimbledon - it would have been hugely embarrassing for the sport if he'd won. Kyrgios is not impressed.

It stinks when they cover it up because it has to do with the
number one player in the world.

[PeteWasLucky]

No matter what, Sinner was treated very differently than all other
players that were found to have some traces of illegal substance
in their tests.
I don't think this matter is settled and closed now, I think there
will be huge consequences to come.

[Scall5]

Post by PeteWasLucky
No matter what, Sinner was treated very differently than all other
players that were found to have some traces of illegal substance
in their tests.
I don't think this matter is settled and closed now, I think there
will be huge consequences to come.

Other current players are asking questions via X, so who knows how this
will pan

[PeteWasLucky]

I am not even questioning their determination but I am questioning the special treatment and process that were given to Sinner.

But if I would question the determination, then it's ridiculous to think that he failed doping tests twice in one month because his trainer had a wound in his finger and he was using some cream or spray for it.

I can't even think how they invented or came up with this story.

[*skriptis]

I am not even questioning their determination but I am questioning the special treatment and process that were given to Sinner.But if I would question the determination, then it's ridiculous to think that he failed doping tests twice in one month because his trainer had a wound in his finger and he was using some cream or spray for it.I can't even think how they invented or came up with this story.-- ---

Why is it not possible?

Let's assume he's s clean, which isn't a hard thing to do. He seems honourable.

So in that scenario, he's not doping but his trainer or masseur uses some cream/spray and transfers illegal substance onto him, so he fails doping test and everyone's clueless, he knows he's not doping and not taking anything so they assume it's a false test and change nothing.

So then he fails the test for the second time.

He loses money and pts but since it was not his fault, he isn't banned.



If we assume he's a doper and that's possible as well, is there anything to discuss? He did it, he got caught, but he tricked them by blaming on the trainer's hand wound.

End of story in that case as well.

[PeteWasLucky]

He is responsible for his own results caused by him or his team. His team is part of his identity. He must be using idiots and he must be an idiot himself to repeat the same mistake twice.

[Whisper]

Post by PeteWasLucky
He is responsible for his own results caused by him or his team. His team is part of his identity. He must be using idiots and he must be an idiot himself to repeat the same mistake twice.

Read the 30 page report before commenting half cocked

[PeteWasLucky]

They aren't facts, they are a story and he was treated differently
than all other players.

[Whisper]

Post by PeteWasLucky
I am not even questioning their determination but I am questioning the special treatment and process that were given to Sinner.

If players want to get the same special treatment as Sinner then they
should get to no.1 and win a slam 1st no?

Post by PeteWasLucky
But if I would question the determination, then it's ridiculous to think that he failed doping tests twice in one month because his trainer had a wound in his finger and he was using some cream or >spray for it.
I can't even think how they invented or came up with this story.

It sounds sus, but could be true. We don't

[Pelle Svanslös]

Post by Whisper

Post by PeteWasLucky

On 8/21/2024 7:58 PM, PeteWasLucky wrote:> PeteWasLucky
Wrote in message:r> On Tue, 20 Aug 2024 16:26:13 -0000 (UTC), Kalevi
Kolttonen wrote:> Hello there!> > I just read today that Jannik
Sinner failed a doping test twice in> March, 2024. He got away with
it with the following reasoning: They> claimed Jannik had a wound in
his finger, and his physio put some stuff> into the wound to speed up
the healing process.> > Apparently this "stuff" contained some kind
of forbidden substance.> > Is this credible?> > It's not that I care
much. I know almost all of them use amphetamine or> its derivatives
anyway. Plus many other advanced performance enhancing> drugs that
cannot be detected in doping tests.> > br,> KKif he didn't do
anything wrong why does he lose his IW money and points? the whole
thing stinks. no wonder he was "injured" at wimbledon - it would have
been hugely embarrassing for the sport if he'd won. Kyrgios is not
impressed.It stinks when they cover it up because it has to do with
the number one player in the world.-- ----Android NewsGroup
Reader----https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html> > No matter what, Sinner was treated very differently than all other>   players that were found to have some traces of illegal substance>   in their tests.> I don't think this matter is settled and closed now, I think there>   will be huge consequences to come.Other current players are asking questions via X, so who knows how this will pan out...-- ---------------Scall5

I am not even questioning their determination but I am questioning the
special treatment and process that were given to Sinner.

If players want to get the same special treatment as Sinner then they
should get to no.1 and win a slam 1st no?

Post by PeteWasLucky
But if I would question the determination, then it's ridiculous to
think that he failed doping tests twice in one month because his
trainer had a wound in his finger and he was using some cream or

spray for it.

I can't even think how they invented or came up with this story.

It sounds sus, but could be true.  We don't know all the details yet.

It sounds like puffing but not inhaling. The river knows the truth.

[PeteWasLucky]

Or maybe the number one player should be good ambassador for the
sport and his punishment should be harsher because he shamed the
sport.

[Whisper]

Post by PeteWasLucky
Or maybe the number one player should be good ambassador for the
sport and his punishment should be harsher because he shamed the
sport.

He only shames the sport if he is a legit doper. If the excuse is tru

[PeteWasLucky]

Excuses because he is the number one player? No

This was much worse than what you think, keep trolling.

[Sawfish]

Post by PeteWasLucky
I am not even questioning their determination but I am questioning the special treatment and process that were given to Sinner.
But if I would question the determination, then it's ridiculous to think that he failed doping tests twice in one month because his trainer had a wound in his finger and he was using some cream or spray for it.
I can't even think how they invented or came up with this story.

Desperation?


--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"To the average American or Englishman the very name of anarchy causes a shudder, because it invariably conjures up a picture of a land terrorized by low-browed assassins with matted beards, carrying bombs in one hand and mugs of beer in the other. But as a matter of fact, there is no reason whatever to believe that, if all laws were abolished tomorrow, such swine would survive the day."

--H. L. Mencken
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Whisper]

Post by Scall5

Post by PeteWasLucky

16:26:13 -0000 (UTC), Kalevi Kolttonen wrote:> Hello there!> > I just
read today that Jannik Sinner failed a doping test twice in> March,
2024. He got away with it with the following reasoning: They> claimed
Jannik had a wound in his finger, and his physio put some stuff> into
the wound to speed up the healing process.> > Apparently this "stuff"
contained some kind of forbidden substance.> > Is this credible?> >
It's not that I care much. I know almost all of them use amphetamine
or> its derivatives anyway. Plus many other advanced performance
enhancing> drugs that cannot be detected in doping tests.> > br,>
KKif he didn't do anything wrong why does he lose his IW money and
points? the whole thing stinks. no wonder he was "injured" at
wimbledon - it would have been hugely embarrassing for the sport if
he'd won. Kyrgios is not impressed.It stinks when they cover it up
because it has to do with the number one player in the world.--
----Android NewsGroup
Reader----https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html

No matter what, Sinner was treated very differently than all other
  players that were found to have some traces of illegal substance
  in their tests.
I don't think this matter is settled and closed now, I think there
  will be huge consequences to come.

Other current players are asking questions via X, so who knows how this
will pan out...

Nobody cares what Kyrgios and Shapavalov think : )

[Whisper]

Post by PeteWasLucky
No matter what, Sinner was treated very differently than all other
players that were found to have some traces of illegal substance
in their tests.
I don't think this matter is settled and closed now, I think there
will be huge consequences to come.

I don't think so. Sinner can afford the best lawyers and is worth a
fortune to the game. It would be silly not to give him special
privileges. I'm not saying they should let him off if he's guilty, but
if they can't find him guilty at the end of the day why not fast track
the process? Of course some poor journeyman who can't afford good
lawyers and doesn't sell tickets isn't go

[PeteWasLucky]

You are defending him because you are relating yourself to him?

[Whisper]

Post by PeteWasLucky
You are defending him because you are relating yourself to him?

I'm not defending or condemning him because I don't have all the facts.
Like Roddick said if he is doping then he's the worst doper ever as the
levels detected were miniscule and not at the levels that could enhance
performance. The top guys are tested regularly so seems silly to take a
known

[PeteWasLucky]

We never heard this kind of excuses before that the levels were
very low that it wasn't enough to enhance his performance
:)

It was either that the player failed drug test or not.

This is why they opened doors of hell for themselves and they
won't be credible any more and won't have the same authority to
punish players for doping. Comparisons will be questioned in
every future case.

[Scall5]

Post by PeteWasLucky
We never heard this kind of excuses before that the levels were
very low that it wasn't enough to enhance his performance
:)
It was either that the player failed drug test or not.
This is why they opened doors of hell for themselves and they
won't be credible any more and won't have the same authority to
punish players for doping. Comparisons will be questioned in
every future case.

Pete - please remember that the ATP/WTA/ITF doping levels can also be a
bit outrageous. For example, one player (whom I can't recall) in the
past was informed that he was drinking too much *coffee* before a match.
Hingis and Richard Gasquet were banned for using cocaine. Those items
aren't short or long-term performance enhancing.

While I am at it, why were (are?) the governing bodies of tennis testing
for marijuana when it DECREASES performance? Hell, if my opponent wanted
to smoke a joint before we played a match, I would grab my wallet and
buy the joint for him!
--
------

[PeteWasLucky]

Gasquet said a girl kissed him and this is how he got cocaine in
his system :)

Hemp is allowed while marijuanas isn't, lol :)

[Whisper]

Post by PeteWasLucky

On Tue, 20 Aug 2024 16:26:13 -0000 (UTC), Kalevi Kolttonen wrote:> Hello there!> > I just read today that Jannik Sinner failed a doping test twice in> March, 2024. He got away with it with the following reasoning: They> claimed Jannik had a wound in his finger, and his physio put some stuff> into the wound to speed up the healing process.> > Apparently this "stuff" contained some kind of forbidden substance.> > Is this credible?> > It's not that I care much. I know almost all of them use amphetamine or> its derivatives anyway. Plus many other advanced performance enhancing> drugs that cannot be detected in doping tests.> > br,> KKif he didn't do anything wrong why does he lose his IW money and points? the whole thing stinks. no wonder he was "injured" at wimbledon - it would have been hugely embarrassing for the sport if he'd won. Kyrgios is not impressed.

It stinks when they cover it up because it has to do with the
number one player in the world.

It would be very damaging to the game if the no.1 was proven doping. I
don't have a problem keeping it under wraps until they are certain, as
long as they resolved it quickly, like they did in this case. I think it
was handled very well. How much better could they have done? And don't
give me that crap about low ranked players not getting the same
treatment. They are expendable.

[PeteWasLucky]

Oh you are very pissed, I am sorry.
The facts are he failed illegal drug testing and he won't have
respect in the tour any more. Taking away his prize money and
points isn't something they do for innocent people.

[*skriptis]

What is it exactly that you want to see here?

[PeteWasLucky]

As court1 believed before, if all players dope then stop testing
or treat all players the same.

[Whisper]

Post by PeteWasLucky
As court1 believed before, if all players dope then stop testing
or treat all players the same.

Dopers are ahead of the testers, takes them years to catch up and put
new drugs on the banned list. Imo most players would dope if they could
get away w

[Kalevi Kolttonen]

Post by Whisper
Dopers are ahead of the testers, takes them years to catch up and put
new drugs on the banned list.

Exactly. Lots of chemists with very bright minds are
constantly working on new design drugs that help
athletes perform better. Access to these drugs is
expensive, but the best athletes can afford it and
they know the price paid will be worth it. Using
these drugs enhances their ability to win matches.

Because the undetectable design drugs are available, I
am puzzled why Sinner would use a traditional
substance that can be detected. After all, he is
a wealthy multimillionare who could afford to buy
the newest design drugs. It seems crazy, right?

So maybe the silly defence story is true after all?

I just cannot tell. Anyway, I am sure Sinner uses
*some* performance enhancing drugs just like all
the best professionals do. Nothing we can do about
it, so let's just enjoy the great shows that they
give us to watch.

br,
KK

[Sawfish]

Post by PeteWasLucky
As court1 believed before, if all players dope then stop testing
or treat all players the same.

Let 'em all dope, I say...

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I woke up this morning and I got myself a beer.
The future's uncertain and the end is always near.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[*skriptis]

But everyone is treated the same, isn't it?

Sinner is caught, it's verified and made public.

So what's the issue?

[PeteWasLucky]

How was he treated the same when he was allowed to keep playing
every tournament after two failed tests?

[*skriptis]

How was he treated the same when he was allowed to keep playing every tournament after two failed tests?

I don't know the exact rules, and what is consequence of a second failed test, but in this case, second test was one week after the first one, I assume they're considered as a single case, they're testing same situation and verifying it?

It's not like he failed at Indian Wells and then at Cincinnati. So that's my take.


Secondly, you know the values can differ. You can have alcohol in your blood and be totally drunk and also you can eat a chocolate with rum and it will show the same thing ie you have alcohol.

If his levels are negligible and his explanation makes sense, and if his trainer was indeed using the cream/spray, what would you do?

Ban him for life?
A year?


I feel removing his money and pts for that tournament is appropriate action, nothing else.

[Whisper]

Post by *skriptis

How was he treated the same when he was allowed to keep playing every tournament after two failed tests?

I don't know the exact rules, and what is consequence of a second failed test, but in this case, second test was one week after the first one, I assume they're considered as a single case, they're testing same situation and verifying it?
It's not like he failed at Indian Wells and then at Cincinnati. So that's my take.
Secondly, you know the values can differ. You can have alcohol in your blood and be totally drunk and also you can eat a chocolate with rum and it will show the same thing ie you have alcohol.
If his levels are negligible and his explanation makes sense, and if his trainer was indeed using the cream/spray, what would you do?
Ban him for life?
A year?
I feel removing his money and pts for that tournament is appropriate action, nothing else.

I guess the only issue was what if he went on to win slams and was legit
juicing? I think they had enough doubt there to conclude it wasn't
intentional, eg the very small levels detected fit the story, so allowed
him him to play on as he wasn't going to be convicted in the end based
on evidence.

[PeteWasLucky]

So they took away his points and money for that tournament, what
if he had won it? And what if these failed tests were during
Wimbledon and he ended up winning it?

Would they have announced the news or kept it secret? Would they
have had taken his title as well?

[Whisper]

Post by PeteWasLucky
So they took away his points and money for that tournament, what
if he had won it? And what if these failed tests were during
Wimbledon and he ended up winning it?
Would they have announced the news or kept it secret? Would they
have had taken his title as well?

I don't think they've ever announced a positive result during a
tournament. If he was juicing at Wimbledon they likely wouldn't have
got the results til after the tournament. Then they'd have to decide the
punishment. It would be ugly. I have a feeling this has happened
before but behind the scenes - eg wouldn't surprise me if Nadal got
caught a couple times and had to serve silent bans as he often took
lengthy breaks. It would have damaged the sport greatly if any of the
big 3 were caught juicing and publicly exposed. Sacrificing a few lowly
ranked journeymen is not detrimental, makes it look like they are
seriously policing PED usage and cracking down. All speculation, but
I'm certain most if not all would take banned PEDs if they coul

[jdeluise]

Post by *skriptis

Post by PeteWasLucky
How was he treated the same when he was allowed to keep playing
every tournament after two failed tests?

I don't know the exact rules, and what is consequence of a
second failed test, but in this case, second test was one week
after the first one, I assume they're considered as a single
case, they're testing same situation and verifying it?
It's not like he failed at Indian Wells and then at
Cincinnati. So that's my take.
Secondly, you know the values can differ. You can have alcohol
in your blood and be totally drunk and also you can eat a
chocolate with rum and it will show the same thing ie you have
alcohol.
If his levels are negligible and his explanation makes sense,
and if his trainer was indeed using the cream/spray, what would
you do?
Ban him for life?
A year?
I feel removing his money and pts for that tournament is
appropriate action, nothing else.

He also loses respect and fans, that could translate to
sponsorship money. However, it feels to me that he's getting
special treatment. I think tennis is struggling right now, the
greats of the era are finally retiring or getting too old to win.
I also feel pickleball is stealing away viewers. They probably
don't want a big scandal but it sure stinks of elitism.

[*skriptis]

I just can't understand pickleball being such a hit?

If it was touch tennis I'd totally understand, I am in love with touch tennis.



Pickleball is kinda a huge table tennis or some kind of mini real tennis?

Meanwhile touch tennis is small lawn tennis indeed. Playing this, everyone can feel like a pro playing tennis, I think it's amazing.

[Sawfish]

Post by *skriptis
I just can't understand pickleball being such a hit?
If it was touch tennis I'd totally understand, I am in love with touch tennis.
Pickleball is kinda a huge table tennis or some kind of mini real tennis?
http://youtu.be/aRRy0kpiP0s
Meanwhile touch tennis is small lawn tennis indeed. Playing this, everyone can feel like a pro playing tennis, I think it's amazing.
http://youtu.be/i7wv_EOivIU

That's interesting.

It de-emphasizes court coverage/footspeed, and to a lesser degree,
stamina. It would seem to favor TS players. Is the net somewhat lower?

Here in the US pickleball (which needs to name-change, for sure) is
favored because existing public courts can be subdivided into many more
pickleball courts, which plays to local politicians wanting to be
perceived as increasing public recreation facilities (at comparatively
low cost) and implicitly striking a righteous blow for the common man
against the elites, since tennis here has always been associates with
the elites--a sort of polo-Lite.

On the topic of questionably named sports/games, there's a transient fad
in the US for an activity called "corn hole", which is just tossing a
bean bag from a distance thru a hole in an inclined board. It has teams,
like horseshoes, does not (yet) have the connection with drunken louts,
as horseshoes does, and here's the part that seals the deal--it can be
called *safer*. Safety is a sort of rhetorical trump card here in the
US. It's like public policy is formed by a bunch of nervous first-time
upper middle class mothers.

But the big trouble with "corn hole" as a name is that for a previous
generations of US males, "cornhole" meant forcible anal rape--and was
used in crude jokes. Sorta like...

"Ira got drunkern a skunk last Saturday, and the Bledsoe brothers--the
uns thet their sister Ira screwed and got pregnant--took him around the
shed and cornholed him with a hoe handle."

So when I first heard on TV about a "corn hole" tournament, or playing
corn hole with your friends next week, it was quite startling.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Confidence: the food of the wise man and the liquor of the fool."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[jdeluise]

Post by *skriptis
I just can't understand pickleball being such a hit?

Yeah, my initial impression is that it's a glorified "pee-wee
tennis" (a game they teach very small children). Let's be honest,
tennis' popularity is probably held back by its unusual scoring
system. I think it intimidates newbies, and it also leads to
interminable matches based mostly on endurance rather than skill.
I'm not suggesting they change tennis, but I feel like alternative
racket sports with scoring systems that are more engaging and
friendly to low attention span viewers are going to gain in
popularity faster.

[*skriptis]

I don't think it's the scoring system.

If it was you could say that about chess or American football or baseball too. I have no idea how do the last two go.

If you find the sport interesting you learn the scoring system.

Some people simply don't like and don't enjoy racquet sports or individual sports so they have 0 interest in tennis or its variants.




But in this thread I was hoping to compare pickleball to touch tennis.

It's such a different vibe.

[bmoore]

-=-=-=-=-=-
initial impression is that it's a glorified "pee-wee tennis" (a game they teach very small children). Let's be
honest, tennis' popularity is probably held back by its unusual scoring system. I think it intimidates newbies,
and it also leads to interminable matches based mostly on endurance rather than skill. I'm not suggesting they
change tennis, but I feel like alternative racket sports with scoring systems that are more engaging and
friendly to low attention span viewers are going to gain in popularity faster.
I don't think it's the scoring system.
If it was you could say that about chess or American football or baseball too. I have no idea how do the last two go.
If you find the sport interesting you learn the scoring system.
Some people simply don't like and don't enjoy racquet sports or individual sports so they have 0 interest in
tennis or its variants.
But in this thread I was hoping to compare pickleball to touch tennis.
It's such a different vibe.

I don't know touch tennis or pickleball very well. Do they compare to table tennis at all?

[Sawfish]

Post by *skriptis

Post by PeteWasLucky
How was he treated the same when he was allowed to keep playing
every tournament after two failed tests?

I don't know the exact rules, and what is consequence of a second
failed test, but in this case, second test was one week after the
first one, I assume they're considered as a single case, they're
testing same situation and verifying it?
It's not like he failed at Indian Wells and then at Cincinnati. So that's my take.
Secondly, you know the values can differ. You can have alcohol in
your blood and be totally drunk and also you can eat a chocolate with
rum and it will show the same thing ie you have alcohol.
If his levels are negligible and his explanation makes sense, and if
his trainer was indeed using the cream/spray, what would you do?
Ban him for life?
A year?
I feel removing his money and pts for that tournament is appropriate
action, nothing else.

He also loses respect and fans, that could translate to sponsorship
money.  However, it feels to me that he's getting special treatment. 
I think tennis is struggling right now, the greats of the era are
finally retiring or getting too old to win. I also feel pickleball is
stealing away viewers.  They probably don't want a big scandal but it
sure stinks of elitism.

I have to agree with the tone of Whisper's responses to this thread, and
yours: the rules an enforced differentially based on the "draw"
potential of the players involved. Those that seem to attract
viewership, either live or televised, are protected in an attempt to
maximize financial potential. It seems very unlikely that players such
as Alcaraz or Sinner are likely to face the same scrutiny and/or
consequences as someone below the top 20.

In a strange sense it's a parallel strategy as that employed by the
major Hollywood studios in the 20s thru the 60s. Male leads under
contract who were flaming homos were "covered" by beards and/or serial
heterosexual "romances", as reported in gossip columns.

So confirmed homos like Rock Hudson and more marginal, perhaps bisexual
leads like Cary Grant, semi-covertly engaged in behaviors that would
have possibly hurt their box office draws, and hence the "governing
body"--the major studios who had them under contract--protected them as
much as they could.

This protection also extended to other unsavory practices that these
same stars engaged in, like Errol Flynn, etc., and the degree of press
blackout was tailored to what the studio PR depts thought was the most
publicly damaging. E.g., a DUI might be OK, but getting butt-fucked by a
troop of leather boys much less so.

[Whisper]

Post by PeteWasLucky
Oh you are very pissed, I am sorry.
The facts are he failed illegal drug testing and he won't have
respect in the tour any more. Taking away his prize money and
points isn't something they do for innocent people.

Again it's clear you don't know the whole story. Neither do I, so I
can't condemn or excuse him at this stage. Taking away prizemoney and
points is automatic if you fail doping. That's fair enough as your
performance may have been enhanced, even if it's not your fault. In
Sinner's case they have concluded his performance couldn't have been
enhanced (1 millionth of a gram), so it makes his story feasible.

I'm trying to look at all the facts before I make my conclusion. You're
lucky you don't need all the facts - goo

[PeteWasLucky]

You are looking for things that satisfy your pre-made decision
that Sinner can't be a cheater and if he is then it's okay
because he won a slam and he is #1.

[TT]

Post by Whisper
1 millionth of a gram

Is that what was left in blood, what was in blood sample or amount which
was taken orginally? Also, what was the substance?

Anyone can reply.

[Kalevi Kolttonen]

Post by TT

Post by Whisper
1 millionth of a gram

Is that what was left in blood, what was in blood sample or amount which
was taken orginally? Also, what was the substance?
Anyone can reply.

1) According to what I read, it was not 1 *millionth* of a gram
but 1 *billionth* of a gram.

2) According to my understanding, that was what was left in the
blood at the time of testing

3) clostebol was the banned substance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostebol

4) If I remember right, I read that 5 other Italian tennis
players have been caught using clostebol

br,
KK

[*skriptis]

Clostebol acetate ointment has ophthalmological and dermatological use. In some countries, such as Italy, it is available without a prescription as a topical cream or spray for the treatment of skin wounds such as abrasions, erosions, fissures and burns. In Italy, it is sold as a spray and cream, with the brand name Trofodermin, containing a combination of clostebol acetate and neomycin.

[jdeluise]

Post by *skriptis

16.59:>> 1 millionth of a gram> > Is that what was left in
blood, what was in blood sample or amount which > was taken
orginally? Also, what was the substance?> > Anyone can reply.1)
According to what I read, it was not 1 *millionth* of a gram
but 1 *billionth* of a gram.2) According to my understanding,
that was what was left in the blood at the time of testing3)
clostebol was the banned substance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostebol4) If I remember right,
I read that 5 other Italian tennis players have been caught
using clostebolbr,KK

Clostebol acetate ointment has ophthalmological and
dermatological use. In some countries, such as Italy, it is
available without a prescription as a topical cream or spray for
the treatment of skin wounds such as abrasions, erosions,
fissures and burns. In Italy, it is sold as a spray and cream,
with the brand name Trofodermin, containing a combination of
clostebol acetate and neomycin.

How hard is it to avoid using products like this that have the
potential for false positives though? I would think that would be
a paramount concern for his team! And Sinner is no pauper...

[*skriptis]

People make mistakes, they go to drugstore in their country, buy creams, sprays, vitamins etc and board the plane.

They're not thinking about doping tests since they're not coping.


This whole case is boring imo.

The only complaint I have is that it wasn't made public at the very moment. What's the point of revealing everything 5 months later?

That's shady.

Not the case itself.

[Pelle Svanslös]

Post by *skriptis
People make mistakes, they go to drugstore in their country, buy creams, sprays, vitamins etc and board the plane.
They're not thinking about doping tests since they're not coping.

Some people do micro dosing, miscalculate, and get caught. Which one is
Sinner? The river knows.

--
"And off they went, from here to there,
The bear, the bear, and the maiden fair"
-- Tradi

[TT]

Post by Pelle Svanslös

Post by *skriptis

Whisper kirjoitti 22.8.2024 klo >> 16.59:>> 1 millionth of a gram> >
Is that what was left in >> blood, what was in blood sample or amount
which > was taken >> orginally? Also, what was the substance?> >
Anyone can reply.1) >> According to what I read, it was not 1
*millionth* of a gram >> but 1 *billionth* of a gram.2) According to
my understanding, >> that was what was left in the   blood at the
time of testing3) >> clostebol was the banned substance >>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostebol4) If I remember right, >> I
read that 5 other Italian tennis   players have been caught >> using
clostebolbr,KK>>>>> Clostebol acetate ointment has ophthalmological
and > dermatological use. In some countries, such as Italy, it is >
available without a prescription as a topical cream or spray for >
the treatment of skin wounds such as abrasions, erosions, > fissures
and burns. In Italy, it is sold as a spray and cream, > with the
brand name Trofodermin, containing a combination of > clostebol
acetate and neomycin.How hard is it to avoid using products like this
that have the potential for false positives though?  I would think
that would be a paramount concern for his team!  And Sinner is no
pauper...

People make mistakes, they go to drugstore in their country, buy
creams, sprays, vitamins etc and board the plane.
They're not thinking about doping tests since they're not coping.

Some people do micro dosing, miscalculate, and get caught. Which one is
Sinner? The river knows.

Some people go gluten free. Could be that too.

[Whisper]

Post by *skriptis

millionth of a gram> > Is that what was left in blood, what was in
blood sample or amount which > was taken orginally? Also, what was
the substance?> > Anyone can reply.1) According to what I read, it
was not 1 *millionth* of a gram but 1 *billionth* of a gram.2)
According to my understanding, that was what was left in the   blood
at the time of testing3) clostebol was the banned substance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostebol4) If I remember right, I read
that 5 other Italian tennis   players have been caught using
clostebolbr,KK

Clostebol acetate ointment has ophthalmological and dermatological
use. In some countries, such as Italy, it is available without a
prescription as a topical cream or spray for the treatment of skin
wounds such as abrasions, erosions, fissures and burns. In Italy, it
is sold as a spray and cream, with the brand name Trofodermin,
containing a combination of clostebol acetate and neomycin.

How hard is it to avoid using products like this that have the potential
for false positives though?  I would think that would be a paramount
concern for his team!  And Sinner is no pauper...

Over the counter in Italy. lots of Italian athletes get caught as it's
widely available.

[Pelle Svanslös]

Post by jdeluise

Post by *skriptis

millionth of a gram> > Is that what was left in blood, what was in
blood sample or amount which > was taken orginally? Also, what was
the substance?> > Anyone can reply.1) According to what I read, it
was not 1 *millionth* of a gram but 1 *billionth* of a gram.2)
According to my understanding, that was what was left in the   blood
at the time of testing3) clostebol was the banned substance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostebol4) If I remember right, I
read that 5 other Italian tennis   players have been caught using
clostebolbr,KK

Clostebol acetate ointment has ophthalmological and dermatological
use. In some countries, such as Italy, it is available without a
prescription as a topical cream or spray for the treatment of skin
wounds such as abrasions, erosions, fissures and burns. In Italy, it
is sold as a spray and cream, with the brand name Trofodermin,
containing a combination of clostebol acetate and neomycin.

How hard is it to avoid using products like this that have the
potential for false positives though?  I would think that would be a
paramount concern for his team!  And Sinner is no pauper...

Over the counter in Italy.  lots of Italian athletes get caught as it's
widely available.

They really shouldn't be getting caught. There's a doping warning on the
box.

Loading Image...

Sinner's trainer should be able to read that too.

[Sawfish]

Post by Pelle Svanslös

Post by jdeluise

Post by *skriptis

millionth of a gram> > Is that what was left in blood, what was in
blood sample or amount which > was taken orginally? Also, what was
the substance?> > Anyone can reply.1) According to what I read, it
was not 1 *millionth* of a gram but 1 *billionth* of a gram.2)
According to my understanding, that was what was left in the
blood at the time of testing3) clostebol was the banned substance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostebol4) If I remember right, I
read that 5 other Italian tennis   players have been caught using
clostebolbr,KK

Clostebol acetate ointment has ophthalmological and dermatological
use. In some countries, such as Italy, it is available without a
prescription as a topical cream or spray for the treatment of skin
wounds such as abrasions, erosions, fissures and burns. In Italy, it
is sold as a spray and cream, with the brand name Trofodermin,
containing a combination of clostebol acetate and neomycin.

How hard is it to avoid using products like this that have the
potential for false positives though?  I would think that would be a
paramount concern for his team!  And Sinner is no pauper...

Over the counter in Italy.  lots of Italian athletes get caught as
it's widely available.

They really shouldn't be getting caught. There's a doping warning on the
box.
https://preview.redd.it/trofodermin-boxes-have-a-helpful-anti-doping-label-that-v0-df9bb0s3pujd1.jpeg?auto=webp&s=fb0cae9df50c9d3dca00019956fb531bcbf3effa
Sinner's trainer should be able to read that too.

His ex-trainer, you mean...
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"To the average American or Englishman the very name of anarchy causes a
shudder, because it invariably conjures up a picture of a land
terrorized by low-browed assassins with matted beards, carrying bombs in
one hand and mugs of beer in the other. But as a matter of fact, there
is no reason whatever to believe that, if all laws were abolished
tomorrow, such swine would survive the day."

--H. L. Mencken
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Pelle Svanslös]

Post by Pelle Svanslös

Post by jdeluise

Post by *skriptis

millionth of a gram> > Is that what was left in blood, what was in
blood sample or amount which > was taken orginally? Also, what was
the substance?> > Anyone can reply.1) According to what I read, it
was not 1 *millionth* of a gram but 1 *billionth* of a gram.2)
According to my understanding, that was what was left in the
blood at the time of testing3) clostebol was the banned substance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostebol4) If I remember right, I
read that 5 other Italian tennis   players have been caught using
clostebolbr,KK

Clostebol acetate ointment has ophthalmological and dermatological
use. In some countries, such as Italy, it is available without a
prescription as a topical cream or spray for the treatment of skin
wounds such as abrasions, erosions, fissures and burns. In Italy, it
is sold as a spray and cream, with the brand name Trofodermin,
containing a combination of clostebol acetate and neomycin.

How hard is it to avoid using products like this that have the
potential for false positives though?  I would think that would be a
paramount concern for his team!  And Sinner is no pauper...

Over the counter in Italy.  lots of Italian athletes get caught as
it's widely available.

They really shouldn't be getting caught. There's a doping warning on the
box.
https://preview.redd.it/trofodermin-boxes-have-a-helpful-anti-doping-label-that-v0-df9bb0s3pujd1.jpeg?auto=webp&s=fb0cae9df50c9d3dca00019956fb531bcbf3effa
Sinner's trainer should be able to read that too.

Looks like this cutting of fingers story has been used a few times already.

https://honestsport.substack.com/p/italys-clostebol-doping-crisis-across

Courtsie would love the chihuahua tale.

[jdeluise]

Post by Kalevi Kolttonen

Post by TT

Post by Whisper
1 millionth of a gram

Is that what was left in blood, what was in blood sample or
amount which
was taken orginally? Also, what was the substance?
Anyone can reply.

1) According to what I read, it was not 1 *millionth* of a gram
but 1 *billionth* of a gram.
2) According to my understanding, that was what was left in the
blood at the time of testing
3) clostebol was the banned substance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostebol
4) If I remember right, I read that 5 other Italian tennis
players have been caught using clostebol
br,
KK

Sinner lives up to his name at last! For shame, Jannik, for
shame...

[Pelle Svanslös]

Post by Kalevi Kolttonen

Post by TT

Post by Whisper
1 millionth of a gram

Is that what was left in blood, what was in blood sample or amount
which was taken orginally? Also, what was the substance?
Anyone can reply.

1) According to what I read, it was not 1 *millionth* of a gram
   but 1 *billionth* of a gram.
2) According to my understanding, that was what was left in the
   blood at the time of testing
3) clostebol was the banned substance
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostebol
4) If I remember right, I read that 5 other Italian tennis
   players have been caught using clostebol
br,
KK

Sinner lives up to his name at last!  For shame, Jannik, for shame...

I vill give him absolution.

[TT]

Post by jdeluise
Sinner lives up to his name at last!

Hahaha... Good one.

[TT]

Post by Kalevi Kolttonen

Post by TT

Post by Whisper
1 millionth of a gram

Is that what was left in blood, what was in blood sample or amount which
was taken orginally? Also, what was the substance?
Anyone can reply.

1) According to what I read, it was not 1 *millionth* of a gram
but 1 *billionth* of a gram.
2) According to my understanding, that was what was left in the
blood at the time of testing
3) clostebol was the banned substance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostebol
4) If I remember right, I read that 5 other Italian tennis
players have been caught using clostebol
br,
KK

Ok. Thanks.

Also, contaminated by coach's hand who used it for a wound. BS

Sinner has been doping, which probably explains partly his good recent form.

[Kalevi Kolttonen]

Post by Kalevi Kolttonen
Is this credible?

A bit more info:

The amount of this substance in his body was
extremely small. About one billionth of a
gram.

br,
KK

[Whisper]

Post by Kalevi Kolttonen

Post by Kalevi Kolttonen
Is this credible?

The amount of this substance in his body was
extremely small. About one billionth of a
gram.
br,
KK

I heard that, but this wouldn't completely excuse him as dopers cycle up
and down so could have been cycling down when tested.

My gut feeling is he didn't intentionally dope, just based on his
character and the way he gets on well with everybody. He seems to have a
lot of integrity - eg he could have eliminated Novak from last WTF by
intentionally losing to him in round robin. He didn't do that and Novak
went on to win. Not many players would have done that. If he's a doper
hellbent on winning at all costs then surely he would have thrown that
match v Novak?

On the flipside we all know he has a physical weakness in long matches
so has a motive to dope. He may figure most players are doping by
various means and he also needs to level the playing field?

[Sawfish]

Post by Whisper

Post by Kalevi Kolttonen

Post by Kalevi Kolttonen
Is this credible?

The amount of this substance in his body was
extremely small. About one billionth of a
gram.
br,
KK

I heard that, but this wouldn't completely excuse him as dopers cycle
up and down so could have been cycling down when tested.
My gut feeling is he didn't intentionally dope, just based on his
character and the way he gets on well with everybody. He seems to have
a lot of integrity - eg he could have eliminated Novak from last WTF
by intentionally losing to him in round robin.  He didn't do that and
Novak went on to win.  Not many players would have done that. If he's
a doper hellbent on winning at all costs then surely he would have
thrown that match v Novak?
On the flipside we all know he has a physical weakness in long matches
so has a motive to dope.

Per this, Monfils might also be included, so far as significant
motivation. In former years, Sampras, as well.

Post by Whisper
  He may figure most players are doping by various means and he also
needs to level the playing field?

[Whisper]

Post by Sawfish

Post by Whisper

Post by Kalevi Kolttonen

Post by Kalevi Kolttonen
Is this credible?

The amount of this substance in his body was
extremely small. About one billionth of a
gram.
br,
KK

I heard that, but this wouldn't completely excuse him as dopers cycle
up and down so could have been cycling down when tested.
My gut feeling is he didn't intentionally dope, just based on his
character and the way he gets on well with everybody. He seems to have
a lot of integrity - eg he could have eliminated Novak from last WTF
by intentionally losing to him in round robin.  He didn't do that and
Novak went on to win.  Not many players would have done that. If he's
a doper hellbent on winning at all costs then surely he would have
thrown that match v Novak?
On the flipside we all know he has a physical weakness in long matches
so has a motive to dope.

Per this, Monfils might also be included, so far as significant
motivation. In former years, Sampras, as well.

Sampras not likely as he played a style not conducive with long drawn
out rallies. I'm guessing Sampras played the quickest matches of all
the greats on average.

[PeteWasLucky]

His character? What about Sharapova, Halep, Hingis and others?
They were sob?

[Whisper]

Post by PeteWasLucky
His character? What about Sharapova, Halep, Hingis and others?
They were sob?

Maybe it was unfair what happened to them, maybe Sinner has better
lawyers etc? But then again those players were almost washed up and
done winning slams when they got caught, while Sinner is at the top of
the game. That's a big factor in seeing this process fast tracked as
the costs are more significant. Are you saying they shouldn't try and
impro

[*skriptis]

Sharapova was very interesting case.

You can't say she's a fraud, she was using same substance for years, only got screwed because her team was not careful enough and not realising the substance became illegal following January 1.

So it's negligence. However as much as I don't see her as a fraud, she's basically a doper as she was using stuff that was later put on a banned list.

So that fits into the theory, "they all dope" and by that, I assume best players are ahead of the curve, using stuff that no one has heard of.

That's how they dope, as proven by Sharapova.


Or they get some exemptions. The same year Sharapova was caught, Serena was given exemption to use some otherwise illegal stuff for the purpose of "healing" or whatever.


So they dope in two ways, using unknown stuff or finding legal loopholes to use banned stuff.

However I honestly doubt that any top ranked player would resort to using a well known banned substance. That's simply low IQ.

It's like a robbing a bank vs committing multi billion financial fraud. Would Trump, Musk or Soros ever rob a bank or would they do financial fraud?