Discussion:
The Real Reason Why Djokovic Was Deported From Australia
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*skriptis
2024-09-27 21:59:01 UTC
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It's a short clip, Djokovic in Serbian with English subtitles.

The clip is far more interesting than the title would suggest.

You get to hear him in original too.
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Whisper
2024-09-28 12:52:51 UTC
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Post by *skriptis
http://youtu.be/5doKiR_v6oM
It's a short clip, Djokovic in Serbian with English subtitles.
The clip is far more interesting than the title would suggest.
You get to hear him in original too.
I still think he should have kept quiet and stayed off social media
until he played his 1st rd match. Most likely would have snuck in
without anyone really paying attention. It was an election year and he
pissed off a lot of people who were suffering under harsh lock down
conditions, so became political quickly. Tough to win against rule
makers when they're trying to win an election and think they can gain votes.
*skriptis
2024-09-29 17:39:16 UTC
Permalink
On 28/09/2024 7:59 am, *skriptis wrote:> http://youtu.be/5doKiR_v6oM > > It's a short clip, Djokovic in Serbian with English subtitles.> > The clip is far more interesting than the title would suggest.> > You get to hear him in original too.> > I still think he should have kept quiet and stayed off social media until he played his 1st rd match. Most likely would have snuck in without anyone really paying attention. It was an election year and he pissed off a lot of people who were suffering under harsh lock down conditions, so became political quickly. Tough to win against rule makers when they're trying to win an election and think they can gain votes.
I really fail to see how would that help?

Maybe it would, but he really did nothing wrong, just announced he's playing in Australia?

I mean, I get your point but I'm trying to say this. At best, staying quiet and off the social media, would have given him 2-3 days of being under the radar. Maximum.

Then what?

He'd still have to talk about it at his first pre tournament press conference.

It would still be a week or more before the tournament.

You don't think same things would happen?
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Whisper
2024-10-01 08:39:04 UTC
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Post by *skriptis
On 28/09/2024 7:59 am, *skriptis wrote:> http://youtu.be/5doKiR_v6oM > > It's a short clip, Djokovic in Serbian with English subtitles.> > The clip is far more interesting than the title would suggest.> > You get to hear him in original too.> > I still think he should have kept quiet and stayed off social media until he played his 1st rd match. Most likely would have snuck in without anyone really paying attention. It was an election year and he pissed off a lot of people who were suffering under harsh lock down conditions, so became political quickly. Tough to win against rule makers when they're trying to win an election and think they can gain votes.
I really fail to see how would that help?
Maybe it would, but he really did nothing wrong, just announced he's playing in Australia?
I mean, I get your point but I'm trying to say this. At best, staying quiet and off the social media, would have given him 2-3 days of being under the radar. Maximum.
Then what?
He'd still have to talk about it at his first pre tournament press conference.
It would still be a week or more before the tournament.
You don't think same things would happen?
I really don't. All Novak had to say when asked was 'no comment, tennis
questions only'. I remember a lot of my non tennis friends were invested
in this topic and many weren't even sure who Novak was, but they cared
big time about the elite having special rules while the rest suffered.
Novak was boasting big time on social media, should have done the
opposite and said nothing. Tilley had already snuck him through the
back door before it all blew up. Anyway it's a lesson that even the
rich/privileged shouldn't push it too far. Politicians make the rules
and they'll do whatever they think will gain them votes.
Pelle Svanslös
2024-10-01 12:06:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by *skriptis
On 28/09/2024 7:59 am, *skriptis wrote:>
http://youtu.be/5doKiR_v6oM > > It's
a short clip, Djokovic in Serbian with English subtitles.> > The clip
is far more interesting than the title would suggest.> > You get to
hear him in original too.> > I still think he should have kept quiet
and stayed off social media until he played his 1st rd match.  Most
likely would have snuck in without anyone really paying attention.
It was an election year and he pissed off a lot of people who were
suffering under harsh lock down conditions, so became political
quickly.  Tough to win against rule makers when they're trying to win
an election and think they can gain votes.
I really fail to see how would that help?
Maybe it would, but he really did nothing wrong, just announced he's
playing in Australia?
I mean, I get your point but I'm trying to say this. At best, staying
quiet and off the social media, would have given him 2-3 days of being
under the radar. Maximum.
Then what?
He'd still have to talk about it at his first pre tournament press conference.
It would still be a week or more before the tournament.
You don't think same things would happen?
I really don't.  All Novak had to say when asked was 'no comment, tennis
questions only'. I remember a lot of my non tennis friends were invested
in this topic and many weren't even sure who Novak was, but they cared
big time about the elite having special rules while the rest suffered.
Novak was boasting big time on social media, should have done the
opposite and said nothing.
Yeah. Djok let the hubris catch up to him. He shouldn't have positioned
himself as some kind of a victorious anti-whatever advocate. That made
him the lightning rod while two others that had taken the same exemption
route were already practicing in Melbourne.

At the time, with the goat chase being where it was, it was the dumbest
thing to do. B-a-a. It still is. Djok was treated badly, but he should
now be able to acknowledge the part he played in it rather than get
worked up about it in TV shows years after. This could be a defect in
the mould.
Tilley had already snuck him through the
back door before it all blew up.  Anyway it's a lesson that even the
rich/privileged shouldn't push it too far.  Politicians make the rules
and they'll do whatever they think will gain them votes.
A pretty good summary of it all.
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Whisper
2024-10-01 13:05:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pelle Svanslös
I really don't.  All Novak had to say when asked was 'no comment,
tennis questions only'. I remember a lot of my non tennis friends were
invested in this topic and many weren't even sure who Novak was, but
they cared big time about the elite having special rules while the
rest suffered. Novak was boasting big time on social media, should
have done the opposite and said nothing.
Yeah. Djok let the hubris catch up to him. He shouldn't have positioned
himself as some kind of a victorious anti-whatever advocate. That made
him the lightning rod while two others that had taken the same exemption
route were already practicing in Melbourne.
At the time, with the goat chase being where it was, it was the dumbest
thing to do. B-a-a. It still is. Djok was treated badly, but he should
now be able to acknowledge the part he played in it rather than get
worked up about it in TV shows years after. This could be a defect in
the mould.
Tilley had already snuck him through the back door before it all blew
up.  Anyway it's a lesson that even the rich/privileged shouldn't push
it too far.  Politicians make the rules and they'll do whatever they
think will gain them votes.
A pretty good summary of it all.
Novak is not an idiot and wouldn't make the same mistake twice, just
unfortunate it cost him a great chance at another slam title. Great for
Rafa who ended up as stand alone slam king twice, at 21 and 22 slams.
Would never have happened if Novak won that AO. He's used to getting
his own way in the tennis world, has been an elite since a teen so
doesn't know any different than administrators bending over backwards to
accommodate him, eg even here with Tilley getting him in initially.
Novak didn't really appreciate his influence would disappear once taken
out of the tennis arena. I remember thinking 'Don't poke the bear
Novak', non-tennis people couldn't give a fuck about your tennis status.
*skriptis
2024-10-01 13:44:54 UTC
Permalink
On 1/10/2024 10:06 pm, Pelle Svanslös wrote:> On 1.10.2024 11.39, Whisper wrote:>> On 30/09/2024 3:39 am, *skriptis wrote:>>>>>> I really don't. All Novak had to say when asked was 'no comment, >> tennis questions only'. I remember a lot of my non tennis friends were >> invested in this topic and many weren't even sure who Novak was, but >> they cared big time about the elite having special rules while the >> rest suffered. Novak was boasting big time on social media, should >> have done the opposite and said nothing. > > Yeah. Djok let the hubris catch up to him. He shouldn't have positioned > himself as some kind of a victorious anti-whatever advocate. That made > him the lightning rod while two others that had taken the same exemption > route were already practicing in Melbourne.> > At the time, with the goat chase being where it was, it was the dumbest > thing to do. B-a-a. It still is. Djok was treated badly, but he should > now be able to acknowledge the part he played in it rather than get > worked up about it in TV shows years after. This could be a defect in > the mould.> >> Tilley had already snuck him through the back door before it all blew >> up. Anyway it's a lesson that even the rich/privileged shouldn't push >> it too far. Politicians make the rules and they'll do whatever they >> think will gain them votes.> > A pretty good summary of it all.> Novak is not an idiot and wouldn't make the same mistake twice, just unfortunate it cost him a great chance at another slam title. Great for Rafa who ended up as stand alone slam king twice, at 21 and 22 slams. Would never have happened if Novak won that AO. He's used to getting his own way in the tennis world, has been an elite since a teen so doesn't know any different than administrators bending over backwards to accommodate him, eg even here with Tilley getting him in initially. Novak didn't really appreciate his influence would disappear once taken out of the tennis arena. I remember thinking 'Don't poke the bear Novak', non-tennis people couldn't give a fuck about your tennis status.
I'm baffled by the cultural differences.


We don't agree on the events, so let's put vaxx issues aside, you talk about him being privileged?

I'm all against "privileges", e.g. great tennis players milking the tour and exploiting the lesser ones (appearance fees being the prime example, why not make fixed number of tournaments mandatory so that all those tournaments can increase prise money to give to the players who earn it on court. As it is now, #1 will get million or two just to show up in some ATP500 or even ATP250 while the tournament will award winner far less than that. So I'm against "privileges").


But I think that it goes without saying that Djokovic (and all tennis athletes) are privileged. He was visiting Australia officially, to play in the International Tennis Federation's Official Championship.

He wasn't visiting his aunt privately or even doing some personal bussines, e.g. promoting his company.

If that was the case, I couldn't care less and perhaps I'd even agree with you.


But he was there to play in Australian international championships. He wasn't there for himself only, but for you as well.

Of course both him and others MUST be treated favourably and Australia must accommodate them properly if they're to honour their part of the bargain, which is the prestige of having such an event.

Athletes are indeed elite in this case, just as are e.g. foreign diplomats.

This tennis championships has been equivalent to the Olympics. It's an international sporting event.

You think it's OK for any government to interfere in such ways in sports? And especially in those times with goat debates on the line?

What if China banned Michael Phelps in 2008 from entering China?

They easily could have done it, I think he was known weed smoker even then? China could have said "bad influence on our youth".

But they didn't because it would have been moronic and unworthy. And they'd likely would have lost chance for future major events.


The arrogance which Australian government and even the people showed is astonishing.

They think it's set in stone that AO must be grand slam tournament?

Why?


I totally changed my oppinion on Australia and the people there. My first gut reaction to Australia is mostly negative nowadays.

I mean, I get that they felt abused by their government, but their reaction was of envious pricks, they cheered for their government not to stop abusing them, but for their government to abuse others, foreigners and in this case, foreigners that government shouldn't have touched, as AO participants did deserve the so called "special treatment".

If you don't give "special treatment" to participants in an international event you're holding, and you even cherry pick whom you want to abuse or not, then you don't deserve to hold such an event.


So even if Djokovic had no papers, he should have been allowed. But of course, he had all, and was allowed to enter Australia when that board checked his medical papers anonymously. They let him in without knowing who he was. So what kind of "special treatment" was that?

It's beyond absurd what happened in the end.
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Whisper
2024-10-02 10:05:27 UTC
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Post by *skriptis
On 1/10/2024 10:06 pm, Pelle Svanslös wrote:> On 1.10.2024 11.39, Whisper wrote:>> On 30/09/2024 3:39 am, *skriptis wrote:>>>>>> I really don't. All Novak had to say when asked was 'no comment, >> tennis questions only'. I remember a lot of my non tennis friends were >> invested in this topic and many weren't even sure who Novak was, but >> they cared big time about the elite having special rules while the >> rest suffered. Novak was boasting big time on social media, should >> have done the opposite and said nothing. > > Yeah. Djok let the hubris catch up to him. He shouldn't have positioned > himself as some kind of a victorious anti-whatever advocate. That made > him the lightning rod while two others that had taken the same exemption > route were already practicing in Melbourne.> > At the time, with the goat chase being where it was, it was the dumbest > thing to do. B-a-a. It still is. Djok was treated badly, but he should > now be able to acknowledge the part he played in it rather than get > worked up about it in TV shows years after. This could be a defect in > the mould.> >> Tilley had already snuck him through the back door before it all blew >> up. Anyway it's a lesson that even the rich/privileged shouldn't push >> it too far. Politicians make the rules and they'll do whatever they >> think will gain them votes.> > A pretty good summary of it all.> Novak is not an idiot and wouldn't make the same mistake twice, just unfortunate it cost him a great chance at another slam title. Great for Rafa who ended up as stand alone slam king twice, at 21 and 22 slams. Would never have happened if Novak won that AO. He's used to getting his own way in the tennis world, has been an elite since a teen so doesn't know any different than administrators bending over backwards to accommodate him, eg even here with Tilley getting him in initially. Novak didn't really appreciate his influence would disappear once taken out of the tennis arena. I remember thinking 'Don't poke the bear Novak', non-tennis people couldn't give a fuck about your tennis status.
I'm baffled by the cultural differences.
Covid was an extreme period in history, decisions taken at the time can
look strange in hindsight. Of course when going through it in real time
most people listen to doctors and the medical profession. It's the
normal and logical option. What's the alternative really, listen to
yotube influencers : )

Aside from that Australia does have a 'tall poppy syndrome' where we
don't admire boastful attitudes. Quiet champions like Laver, Borg,
Edberg etc are much loved and admired because everyone can see they're
great, don't need the players telling us they're great.
Post by *skriptis
We don't agree on the events, so let's put vaxx issues aside, you talk about him being privileged?
He was treated with great privilege from a very young age due to his
tennis ability, that's very normal for all great players. The big
players make $$ for the sport so they get what they want from
administrators. That's all Novak knew as that's how he was always
treated, just didn't fully appreciate it doesn't extend outside the
sporting field. Many people don't care about sport let alone tennis.
These people vote and politicians listen.
Post by *skriptis
I'm all against "privileges", e.g. great tennis players milking the tour and exploiting the lesser ones (appearance fees being the prime example, why not make fixed number of tournaments mandatory so that all those tournaments can increase prise money to give to the players who earn it on court. As it is now, #1 will get million or two just to show up in some ATP500 or even ATP250 while the tournament will award winner far less than that. So I'm against "privileges").
I'm not. They bring in the big $$ and are special. If they don't get
the extra $$ some administrator/investor gets more. If lesser players
want the same privilege then they need to work harder and become better
players. It's a democratic system, by and large.
Post by *skriptis
But I think that it goes without saying that Djokovic (and all tennis athletes) are privileged. He was visiting Australia officially, to play in the International Tennis Federation's Official Championship.
He wasn't visiting his aunt privately or even doing some personal bussines, e.g. promoting his company.
If that was the case, I couldn't care less and perhaps I'd even agree with you.
I think Novak should have been allowed to play. I could see he was
going to be kicked out - it didn't have to happen, should have gone 'no
comment' mode. He would have been into 2nd week before anyone knew what
was going on.
Post by *skriptis
But he was there to play in Australian international championships. He wasn't there for himself only, but for you as well.
Of course both him and others MUST be treated favourably and Australia must accommodate them properly if they're to honour their part of the bargain, which is the prestige of having such an event.
Athletes are indeed elite in this case, just as are e.g. foreign diplomats.
This tennis championships has been equivalent to the Olympics. It's an international sporting event.
You think it's OK for any government to interfere in such ways in sports? And especially in those times with goat debates on the line?
Of course not, but it was obvious they were going to once the outraged
public demanded consistent action from their politicians. They wouldn't
have been outraged if he stayed mum.
Post by *skriptis
What if China banned Michael Phelps in 2008 from entering China?
Covid were not normal times. Novak was also banned from 2022 USO.
Post by *skriptis
They easily could have done it, I think he was known weed smoker even then? China could have said "bad influence on our youth".
But they didn't because it would have been moronic and unworthy. And they'd likely would have lost chance for future major events.
Smoking weed is not the same as flouting health regulations that effect
millions.
Post by *skriptis
The arrogance which Australian government and even the people showed is astonishing.
I don't think it's astonishing, rather very obvious reaction from the
public. I personally would have let him play anyway, but I can see why
most wouldn't. If millions of people are forced to take vax and isolate
for 4 months straight they aren't going to be happy watching privileged
public figures like Novak blatantly flout the rules. Millions would have
done what Novak did, but didn't have the option.
Post by *skriptis
They think it's set in stone that AO must be grand slam tournament?
Why?
Most Australians don't care about tennis, but they demand politicians
enforce the rules evenly, no favorites.
Post by *skriptis
I totally changed my oppinion on Australia and the people there. My first gut reaction to Australia is mostly negative nowadays.
I mean, I get that they felt abused by their government, but their reaction was of envious pricks, they cheered for their government not to stop abusing them, but for their government to abuse >others, foreigners and in this case, foreigners that government shouldn't have touched, as AO participants did deserve the so called "special treatment".
If you don't give "special treatment" to participants in an international event you're holding, and you even cherry pick whom you want to abuse or not, then you don't deserve to hold such an event.
Overall I agree, but covid was a unique and weird time in history. On
the one hand the public is asked to suffer and isolte/vax because it was
so important, but then say it's ok for elites to do what they want?
That was never going to fly.
Post by *skriptis
So even if Djokovic had no papers, he should have been allowed. But of course, he had all, and was allowed to enter Australia when that board checked his medical papers anonymously. They let him in without knowing who he was. So what kind of "special treatment" was that?
It's beyond absurd what happened in the end.
Well I think we did bend over to get him in. He just needed to
*skriptis
2024-10-05 08:40:09 UTC
Permalink
Covid was an extreme period in history, decisions taken at the time can look strange in hindsight. Of course when going through it in real time most people listen to doctors and the medical profession. It's the normal and logical option. What's the alternative really, listen to yotube influencers : )
I don't think anyone listen to "YouTube influencers". You do?

YouTube influencers are merely people who were parroting certain views on vax that were sceptical. They were minority, most of YouTube influencers alongside with mainstream media and politicians were parroting pro vax propaganda.

When Biden or Trump say "get vaxxed" you think they're experts?

Of course they're not.

Point being, anti-vax views were coming from the minority of EXPERTS who were cut off from the media.

Their views and reasonings were parroted by unknown YouTubers same as other YouTube influencers and Biden and CNN were parroting pro vax views.


So the whole thing with "YouTube influencers" is bit overstretched.
Aside from that Australia does have a 'tall poppy syndrome' where we don't admire boastful attitudes.
But Djokovic didn't boast and he didn't get anything that your law and protocols didn't allow for.

As you've seen, several tennis players entered Australia on the same grounds week before him, Czech female player even played in some WTA tournament. And then she got deported later once Djokovic was deported too.

The "boasting" in this whole case certainly couldn't be found on his side, I'd say Australia was a tall poppy in this case.
Quiet champions like Laver, Borg, Edberg etc are much loved and admired because everyone can see they're great, don't need the players telling us they're great.
So you don't like Mohammad Ali or Trump or Ruby Rhod?
I'm not. They bring in the big $$ and are special. If they don't get the extra $$ some administrator/investor gets more. If lesser players want the same privilege then they need to work harder and become better players. It's a democratic system, by and large.
There's nothing democratic in #1 receiving 2 millions appearance fee, and tournament champion receiving 0.3 millions.

Money that was spent (bribe really) on #1 and given to him under the table could have been spent on proper tournament prize money, attracting overall better players and bolstering competition and allowing lesser player to reach financial stability and progress faster and better.

Luckily at least we have dozen plus mandatory tournaments to avoid such unfair practices.

But overall, this is weak spot of tennis.
I think Novak should have been allowed to play. I could see he was going to be kicked out - it didn't have to happen, should have gone 'no comment' mode. He would have been into 2nd week before anyone knew what was going on.
Yeah, that was my original question but as you've seen, the Czech player(s) were deported weeks after they had entered Australia and played in tournaments.

Having seen what happened to Czechs, my point is that it was unavoidable.

Your point is that Djokovic's Instagram message "looking forward to Australia" is what set things in motion.


Let's agree to disagree.
Smoking weed is not the same as flouting health regulations that effect millions.
We're running in circles.

I thought we settled for the truth?

Djokovic wasn't deported because he broke any rule or flout anything.

He even won court case.


He was deported by your government simply because governments can do it. They extrapolated that Djokovic not being particularly pro-vax and a visible public persona who is not vaxxed is damaging to their oppressive regime.

So even though Djokovic broke no rules, he was provoking them with their presence so they kicked him out.

That's why I disagree with you on saying "he should have stayed mum".

It was never about anything he said, rather, what he was turned into, a symbol for freedom. Vaxxers did that to him, even though he didn't want it, he minded his own business, he was pussy-like neutral, never said anything such as "hey people, don't take these shots" or stuff like that.



That's why I took Phelps comparison. Chinese government could have likewise disliked Phelps as he was a weed smoker and said, we don't want this guy in our country, he sets bad example for our kids.

And then there would be no 20 or how many gold medals for him.
If millions of people are forced to take vax and isolate for 4 months straight they aren't going to be happy watching privileged public figures like Novak blatantly flout the rules.
Again, he satisfied your rules, that you set. As did those other tennis players. Who were all later kicked out with Djokovic.

You didn't know to play by the rules, he did.

At least in USO case, it was clear from the start that previously having COVID is not enough to get medical exemption to enter USA so Djokovic didn't even try.

Americans were at least clear.
Millions would have done what Novak did, but didn't have the option.
What do you mean by that, millions would have come to Australia using medical exemption? That's what you said?

But I know you mean "millions would not have taken the vaccine", right?

Well. If that's the case, you should have fought for your rights, not cheer to abuse the others who are free.




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jdeluise
2024-10-05 09:12:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by *skriptis
Post by Whisper
Covid was an extreme period in history, decisions taken at the
time can look strange in hindsight. Of course when going
through it in real time most people listen to doctors and the
medical profession. It's the normal and logical option.
What's the alternative really, listen to yotube influencers : )
I don't think anyone listen to "YouTube influencers". You do?
YouTube influencers are merely people who were parroting certain
views on vax that were sceptical. They were minority, most of
YouTube influencers alongside with mainstream media and
politicians were parroting pro vax propaganda.
When Biden or Trump say "get vaxxed" you think they're experts?
Of course they're not.
Point being, anti-vax views were coming from the minority of
EXPERTS who were cut off from the media.
Their views and reasonings were parroted by unknown YouTubers
same as other YouTube influencers and Biden and CNN were
parroting pro vax views.
So the whole thing with "YouTube influencers" is bit
overstretched.
Post by Whisper
Aside from that Australia does have a 'tall poppy syndrome'
where we don't admire boastful attitudes.
But Djokovic didn't boast and he didn't get anything that your
law and protocols didn't allow for.
As you've seen, several tennis players entered Australia on the
same grounds week before him, Czech female player even played in
some WTA tournament. And then she got deported later once
Djokovic was deported too.
The "boasting" in this whole case certainly couldn't be found on
his side, I'd say Australia was a tall poppy in this case.
Post by Whisper
Quiet champions like Laver, Borg, Edberg etc are much loved and
admired because everyone can see they're great, don't need the
players telling us they're great.
So you don't like Mohammad Ali or Trump or Ruby Rhod?
Post by Whisper
I'm not. They bring in the big $$ and are special. If they
don't get the extra $$ some administrator/investor gets more.
If lesser players want the same privilege then they need to
work harder and become better players. It's a democratic
system, by and large.
There's nothing democratic in #1 receiving 2 millions appearance
fee, and tournament champion receiving 0.3 millions.
Money that was spent (bribe really) on #1 and given to him under
the table could have been spent on proper tournament prize
money, attracting overall better players and bolstering
competition and allowing lesser player to reach financial
stability and progress faster and better.
Luckily at least we have dozen plus mandatory tournaments to
avoid such unfair practices.
But overall, this is weak spot of tennis.
Post by Whisper
I think Novak should have been allowed to play. I could see he
was going to be kicked out - it didn't have to happen, should
have gone 'no comment' mode. He would have been into 2nd week
before anyone knew what was going on.
Yeah, that was my original question but as you've seen, the
Czech player(s) were deported weeks after they had entered
Australia and played in tournaments.
Having seen what happened to Czechs, my point is that it was
unavoidable.
Your point is that Djokovic's Instagram message "looking forward
to Australia" is what set things in motion.
Let's agree to disagree.
Post by Whisper
Smoking weed is not the same as flouting health regulations
that effect millions.
We're running in circles.
I thought we settled for the truth?
Djokovic wasn't deported because he broke any rule or flout
anything.
He even won court case.
He was deported by your government simply because governments
can do it. They extrapolated that Djokovic not being
particularly pro-vax and a visible public persona who is not
vaxxed is damaging to their oppressive regime.
So even though Djokovic broke no rules, he was provoking them
with their presence so they kicked him out.
That's why I disagree with you on saying "he should have stayed mum".
It was never about anything he said, rather, what he was turned
into, a symbol for freedom. Vaxxers did that to him, even though
he didn't want it, he minded his own business, he was pussy-like
neutral, never said anything such as "hey people, don't take
these shots" or stuff like that.
That's why I took Phelps comparison. Chinese government could
have likewise disliked Phelps as he was a weed smoker and said,
we don't want this guy in our country, he sets bad example for
our kids.
And then there would be no 20 or how many gold medals for him.
Post by Whisper
If millions of people are forced to take vax and isolate for 4
months straight they aren't going to be happy watching
privileged public figures like Novak blatantly flout the rules.
Again, he satisfied your rules, that you set. As did those other
tennis players. Who were all later kicked out with Djokovic.
You didn't know to play by the rules, he did.
At least in USO case, it was clear from the start that
previously having COVID is not enough to get medical exemption
to enter USA so Djokovic didn't even try.
Americans were at least clear.
Post by Whisper
Millions would have done what Novak did, but didn't have the
option.
What do you mean by that, millions would have come to Australia
using medical exemption? That's what you said?
But I know you mean "millions would not have taken the vaccine", right?
Well. If that's the case, you should have fought for your
rights, not cheer to abuse the others who are free.
https://youtube.com/shorts/wzP8mcbiKMY?si=Ty1xncGULOR57T-U
Anyone remember when *skript wrote this a couple weeks ago?

But Brazil is a state. A country.

They call the shots.


It's none of your business "to agree or disagree" with anything.

I hope I'm being clear on this. It's like me saying "I don't
agree with
US gun laws or second amendment".

It's bizarre thing to say for a foreigner.

...

But still, Brazil is the country so I'm on their side. We have
to always
be nationalists.
*skriptis
2024-10-05 09:21:45 UTC
Permalink
You have reading and comprehension issues.

Of course you won't post anything factual, just your standard beta bitch whining "hah I caught you in hypocrisy".

For some reason you think you've won all arguments when you do that, it's hilarious, reality check you win none, you're laughing stock when you do that.
--
----Android NewsGroup Reader----
https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html
Whisper
2024-10-05 09:33:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by *skriptis
You have reading and comprehension issues.
Of course you won't post anything factual, just your standard beta bitch whining "hah I caught you in hypocrisy".
For some reason you think you've won all arguments when you do that, it's hilarious, reality check you win none, you're laughing stock when you do that.
: )
Sawfish
2024-10-05 13:17:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by *skriptis
You have reading and comprehension issues.
Of course you won't post anything factual, just your standard beta bitch whining "hah I caught you in hypocrisy".
Diverting here, I've been playing around with the idea that, just as
many words have "evolved" from their original meanings in common popular
usage--e.g., "phobia" originally meaning "fear of", but now can mean
"someone who strongly dislikes", as in "Islamaphobia"--there are also
words that describe something that has no immediately recognizable
meaning, or is there is a recognition of the word, the concept it stands
for has a much, much lower societal value. For example, "hypocrisy" is
not easily recognized among the youth in US, and when it is, it has
little negative value.

Similarly, "dignity", "integrity", "personal honor" have little to no
immediate recognition nor value.

I've been reading some interesting books lately. One is "Discourses on
the First Decade of Titus Livius" by Machiavelli. He analyzes how human
societies tend to cycle thru forms of government in a fairly predictable
sequence. Much of the impetus for change is either overwhelming ambition
of ruling groups, or resorting to base and immediate gratifications by
the common folk.

You can see all this coming around again, and it looks like the US, at
~250 years of a republican form of government, is about ready to drift
toward monarchy to combat oligarchy.
Post by *skriptis
For some reason you think you've won all arguments when you do that, it's hilarious, reality check you win none, you're laughing stock when you do that.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I done created myself a monster."

--Juan Carlos Ferrero
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*skriptis
2024-10-05 14:14:53 UTC
Permalink
Diverting here, I've been playing around with the idea that, just as many words have "evolved" from their original meanings in common popular usage--e.g., "phobia" originally meaning "fear of", but now can mean "someone who strongly dislikes", as in "Islamaphobia"--
Yeah, or homophobia and many others.



It's also interesting to note what Jews did here?

They use several words and terms that relate to them, but the terms are often not easily connected. It enables them to weasel out.


E.g. if someone accuses you of islamophobia under current meaning (e.g. you hate Moslems) at least you can pinpoint the fact that e.g. Moslems do some shit and thus you justify yourself.



With Jews it's not so straightforward as they use several terms for them.

Language: Hebrew
Country: Israel
People: Jews
Religion: Judaism
Hatred: anti-Semitism


Compare that to e.g. Russians who can't escape?

Language: Russian
Country: Russia
People: Russians *
Religion: Russian orthodox Christianity
Hatred: russophobia


So if someone accuses you of russophobia e.g. for removing Dostoyevsky or Tchaikovsky or Medvedev from Wimbledon, you can easily at least justify that by drawing paralels to "bad Russia under Putin".

Russians have not planned escape routes as Jews have done.


Otoh when you point to the fact Israel has killed 40 thousand people in the last year, half of it children, then they, even if they acknowledge it, will likewise say, but don't attack all Jews because of it.

And when you point out to the fact that Jews dominate US politics, and have infiltrated in top echelons there, they will say, Israel has nothing to do with that.

If you think it's related, you're an anti-Semite.

A word that has no true meaning (Arabs are Semites too) and is simply used as a major slur in English language for those whom Jews dislike them.







* Russians actually have two words for themselves, just as Croats and Serbs.

The thing is, our variants are recognised in English, I'm not so sure about Russian.


Here's the thing.

Both you and Djokovic are Serbs, but only Djokovic is Serbian.


For Russia (Rossiya).

Ruskies would be true Slavic Russians.
Rossiyane would be any citizen of Russia.

So russkie is something like a WASP in your case?
You can see all this coming around again, and it looks like the US, at ~250 years of a republican form of government, is about ready to drift toward monarchy to combat oligarchy.
It's normal and natural.

Nobles are scum. They enjoy luxury and easy life without no responsibility.

Only a patriotic leader can fight for the people and crush the nobility.


We all cheer for one true leader and king to dominate his rivals and subjugate his enemies to help the peasants.

You can see it in tennis too.

We the tennis fans (peasants) all enjoyed and wanted to see (insert any of the big 3 depending on your taste) dominating the pretenders, the nobles, guys like Berdych, Ferrer, Tsonga, Dimitrov, Raonic, Tsitsipas, etc.

Peasants rely on powerful king.


Chinese have Xi.
Slavs have Putin.
Hindus have Modi.
Persians have Ayatollah.

Anglos, Germanics have Soros and the Jews.
--
----Android NewsGroup Reader----
https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html
Sawfish
2024-10-05 20:44:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by *skriptis
Diverting here, I've been playing around with the idea that, just as many words have "evolved" from their original meanings in common popular usage--e.g., "phobia" originally meaning "fear of", but now can mean "someone who strongly dislikes", as in "Islamaphobia"--
Yeah, or homophobia and many others.
It's also interesting to note what Jews did here?
They use several words and terms that relate to them, but the terms are often not easily connected. It enables them to weasel out.
E.g. if someone accuses you of islamophobia under current meaning (e.g. you hate Moslems) at least you can pinpoint the fact that e.g. Moslems do some shit and thus you justify yourself.
With Jews it's not so straightforward as they use several terms for them.
Language: Hebrew
Country: Israel
People: Jews
Religion: Judaism
Hatred: anti-Semitism
OK.

I realize that you look at situations involving Jews in the world and
tend to see Jews as a consciously directed threat toward everyone else,
while I see about the same situations and tend to see the motivations
for their behavior somewhat differently.

But I think we both see the same things but attribute these things to
different motivations--e.g., I see Jews as very effective competitors,
well organized, and coalesced around their ethnic mythology, and a big
part of how they operate in the general society is to co-operate in much
the same way that a benevolent society, like the Elks Club, Rotarians,
or the Masons do, but for Jews all this secret handshaking and
favoritism is on steroids, so to speak.

And yet in my dealings with Jews I a) never felt that they targeted me
as a person; and b) they unquestionably favored first their kinship
group, and second their ethnic/religious peers. Since I'm not a Jew, I
would not receive any favors beyond any value I can provide, which is
understandable to me. They do this much more strongly--and without any
sense of guilt--than non-Jews do. They do it reflexively.

So I see them as a group to be wary of, who have no particular reason to
spare me from the effects of their search for advancement/security
beyond any personal attachments--and these will be very limited. I do
not se them as targeting me in the same way that the common left
progressives target me on forums on the basis of my income, my assets,
my skin color, my gender, and where I sent my daughter to school. On
forums like this I've had some of their ilk write that they can't wait
for me to die so that the world will be a better place.

Or, from 1965 to 1970 my own government sought to impress me into their
army, to send to SE Asia to do their bidding, at potentially great risk
to myself.

Now *those* are what I view as a personal and directed threat, with
little chance to cooperate with them (radical woke/draft board) in a
limited and wary fashion, as I would be able to do with Jews here in the US.

So, no, I don't particularly *like* them, any more than I like a French
national or a black professor, unless I can establish a *positive*
personal understanding of some kind, which only extends to that activity
and to that person. But believe me when I say: I'm very quick to
recognize a threat, and very wary and paranoid, and I have yet to
recognize a threat from Jews to me or to my possessions that are aimed
at me. I can avoid threats of all kinds--very good at it--but I haven't
had to with Jews, so far.

Now I also accept that you have a different reality going, and because
of it you've come to different conclusions, and I can respect those
conclusions as appropriate *for you*. I'd argue that by default those
conclusions might not be appropriate if you lived here, but again, it
would be *your* informed choice, so OK by me.

So, you see, you feel enmity towards a group I'm not a part of, and
appear to display no enmity towards me, personally, and as long as it
stays like that, I could give a shit less.
Post by *skriptis
Compare that to e.g. Russians who can't escape?
Language: Russian
Country: Russia
People: Russians *
Religion: Russian orthodox Christianity
Hatred: russophobia
So if someone accuses you of russophobia e.g. for removing Dostoyevsky or Tchaikovsky or Medvedev from Wimbledon, you can easily at least justify that by drawing paralels to "bad Russia under Putin".
Russians have not planned escape routes as Jews have done.
Otoh when you point to the fact Israel has killed 40 thousand people in the last year, half of it children, then they, even if they acknowledge it, will likewise say, but don't attack all Jews because of it.
And when you point out to the fact that Jews dominate US politics, and have infiltrated in top echelons there, they will say, Israel has nothing to do with that.
If you think it's related, you're an anti-Semite.
A word that has no true meaning (Arabs are Semites too) and is simply used as a major slur in English language for those whom Jews dislike them.
* Russians actually have two words for themselves, just as Croats and Serbs.
The thing is, our variants are recognised in English, I'm not so sure about Russian.
Here's the thing.
Both you and Djokovic are Serbs, but only Djokovic is Serbian.
For Russia (Rossiya).
Ruskies would be true Slavic Russians.
Rossiyane would be any citizen of Russia.
So russkie is something like a WASP in your case?
This raises an interesting difference between most "old world" polities
(nations) vs new world polities.

In Europe, e.g., the names of most nations are derived from the ethnic
group that has occupied much of it and dominated it enough to name the
territory after themselves. France for the French (Franks), Germany for
the Germans, Poland for Poles, etc.

But over here, being settled by European immigrants who quickly either
killed off, or otherwise dominated the native populations, the *names*
of territories were not named after ethnicities: the main exception
being Mexico--and even that is stretching the reality of who actually
lived in what is now the territory of Mexico. There were for a while a
few temporary exceptions: New Spain, Nova Scotia, etc. but these became
meaningless since the entire population was ethnically diverse. E.g., my
own grandparents soon considered themselves as "Americans" in the sense
that you mention "Rossiyene" and no one bothered with us so far as
private cultural practices. Certainly it helped that we were both white
and willing to work, but yep, we feel that first and foremost, due to
the fact of our residence, and the "skin" we've got in the game, we're
Americans, for sure.

And the US is so mixed, both ethnically and racially, that it's
sometimes a conversation starter is to ask about *ethnicity*, but not
race--although most east Asians don't care about that, unless they've
gone to a progressive school and have absorbed a degree of fashionable
victimhood.

But ultimately, it's very simple how to succeed in the US: you observe
and you figure out what you've got to do to get what you want, and try
your best to do it. If, for some reason, you can't do this, you can live
under a highway overpass, sleeping on a piece of cardboard that you took
away from a stray dog, enjoying a fentanyl haze.

I suspect, but cannot know, that this way to get along is similar to
Whisper's experience in Australia.
Post by *skriptis
You can see all this coming around again, and it looks like the US, at ~250 years of a republican form of government, is about ready to drift toward monarchy to combat oligarchy.
It's normal and natural.
That's what Machiavelli says, too.
Post by *skriptis
Nobles are scum. They enjoy luxury and easy life without no responsibility.
Only a patriotic leader can fight for the people and crush the nobility.
This sort of leader would be termed a benevolent populist. Gracchi,
Marius, Caesar (to a fair degree).

Sulla the opposite.
Post by *skriptis
We all cheer for one true leader and king to dominate his rivals and subjugate his enemies to help the peasants.
Yes, ideally this is how it works. Castro is a good example, but it's
very hard to pull it off in the longer term *unless* the nation is very
resource rich and powerful.
Post by *skriptis
You can see it in tennis too.
We the tennis fans (peasants) all enjoyed and wanted to see (insert any of the big 3 depending on your taste) dominating the pretenders, the nobles, guys like Berdych, Ferrer, Tsonga, Dimitrov, Raonic, Tsitsipas, etc.
Peasants rely on powerful king.
Whom history has shown to be trustworthy only rarely, like the Five Good
emperors of the Pax Romana. So far as I can recall, none of these held
power thru inheritance, and in fact an inherited monarchy may be real
trouble, since merit is unnecessary to obtain power.
Post by *skriptis
Chinese have Xi.
Slavs have Putin.
Hindus have Modi.
Persians have Ayatollah.
Anglos, Germanics have Soros and the Jews.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. But give a man a boat,
a case of beer, and a few sticks of dynamite..." -- Sawfish
jdeluise
2024-10-05 18:10:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by *skriptis
You have reading and comprehension issues.
Of course you won't post anything factual, just your standard
beta bitch whining "hah I caught you in hypocrisy".
For some reason you think you've won all arguments when you do
that, it's hilarious, reality check you win none, you're
laughing stock when you do that.
Well, someone has to reveal how hollow and inconsistent your
(many) words are on every topic. Saw and Whisper aren't going to
do it, they both have a weakness for flattery and you've put in a
lot of good years extensively fluffing their egos. Kinda like a
beta, or in your case a perennial cuck.
Scall5
2024-10-06 01:00:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by *skriptis
You have reading and comprehension issues.
Of course you won't post anything factual, just your standard beta
bitch whining "hah I caught you in hypocrisy".
For some reason you think you've won all arguments when you do that,
it's hilarious, reality check you win none, you're laughing stock when
you do that.
Well, someone has to reveal how hollow and inconsistent your (many)
words are on every topic.  Saw and Whisper aren't going to do it, they
both have a weakness for flattery and you've put in a lot of good years
extensively fluffing their egos.  Kinda like a beta, or in your case a
perennial cuck.
Perhaps, and I exclude Whisper in this discussion... But I am curious
why Sawfish never followed up with a reply to the reasons I am a
Libertarian...
--
---------------
Scall5
Sawfish
2024-10-06 01:46:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scall5
Post by *skriptis
You have reading and comprehension issues.
Of course you won't post anything factual, just your standard beta
bitch whining "hah I caught you in hypocrisy".
For some reason you think you've won all arguments when you do that,
it's hilarious, reality check you win none, you're laughing stock
when you do that.
Well, someone has to reveal how hollow and inconsistent your (many)
words are on every topic.  Saw and Whisper aren't going to do it, they
both have a weakness for flattery and you've put in a lot of good
years extensively fluffing their egos.  Kinda like a beta, or in your
case a perennial cuck.
Perhaps, and I exclude Whisper in this discussion... But I am curious
why Sawfish never followed up with a reply to the reasons I am a
Libertarian...
Well, I understood it to be your personal political philosophy, you have
come across for years as a basically honest and decent guy, so your
reasons seem to me to be your own business.

It goes without saying that my own views are different, but not
diametrically opposed. I don't see any point in arguing about the way
you want to structure your life plans.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant was awful--but at least the portions
were large!" --Sawfish
Scall5
2024-10-06 07:48:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sawfish
Post by Scall5
Post by *skriptis
You have reading and comprehension issues.
Of course you won't post anything factual, just your standard beta
bitch whining "hah I caught you in hypocrisy".
For some reason you think you've won all arguments when you do that,
it's hilarious, reality check you win none, you're laughing stock
when you do that.
Well, someone has to reveal how hollow and inconsistent your (many)
words are on every topic.  Saw and Whisper aren't going to do it,
they both have a weakness for flattery and you've put in a lot of
good years extensively fluffing their egos.  Kinda like a beta, or in
your case a perennial cuck.
Perhaps, and I exclude Whisper in this discussion... But I am curious
why Sawfish never followed up with a reply to the reasons I am a
Libertarian...
Well, I understood it to be your personal political philosophy, you have
come across for years as a basically honest and decent guy, so your
reasons seem to me to be your own business.
It goes without saying that my own views are different, but not
diametrically opposed. I don't see any point in arguing about the way
you want to structure your life plans.
Valid point you have Sawfish. Thanks for the follow up!
--
---------------
Scall5
jdeluise
2024-10-08 15:54:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scall5
Valid point you have Sawfish. Thanks for the follow up!
As a libertarian, do you feel the federal government should be
providing any assistance for the devastation from Helene, and soon
from Milton?
Sawfish
2024-10-08 17:27:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scall5
Valid point you have Sawfish. Thanks for the follow up!
As a libertarian, do you feel the federal government should be providing
any assistance for the devastation from Helene, and soon from Milton?
That's a good philosophical question. I'm interested in hearing the
answer, but will remain non-judgmental for a variety of reasons.

For myself, I see FEMA stuff like national defense and infrastructure:
it's a broadly utilitarian use of public money that, for the most part,
is not destabilizing.

At one time I was seriously concerned about where government
expenditures were spent, but after a while I no longer much cared,
except so far as utilitarian effectiveness, and every now and then
whether the expenditure was on something I found personally repellent.

This is getting less and less, since it's futile to do so. I can still
get worked up about *increasing* federal revenues thru added taxation
(specifically, on me--but increased taxation on someone else is a proxy
threat to me), but that, too, is futile, so...

It's great being old. Things could go to hell in a handbasket and you
either won't have to put up with it for much longer, or, if you're
lucky, you can dodge the entire shitstorm.

You can see that I'm basically an optimist.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I’ve seen things you people wouldn’t believe.

Barbecue grills on fire behind the condominiums that line the 9th fairway.

I watched casual strollers slip on dog excrement on the boardwalk near
the amusement pier.

All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.

Time for lunch.

--Sawfish
Scall5
2024-10-08 23:46:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scall5
Valid point you have Sawfish. Thanks for the follow up!
As a libertarian, do you feel the federal government should be providing
any assistance for the devastation from Helene, and soon from Milton?
Well the USA Federal Government has been (supposedly) taxing it's
citizens to support agencies like FMEA to aid those in distress. So yes,
FMEA needs to stand up BIG time and offer aid in times like this.

That being said, anytime the Federal Government (or individual states
for that matter) create a tax to *only* fund a single entity it quickly
is a stash fund for the GOP/Democrat Duopoly to raid monies for other
reelection items. Social Security is a great example. Even in the early
1980's Reagan was mentioning that Social Security was being raided for
other federal expenditures.

State run lotteries are another example of state's mismanagement. "It
will only go to the schools and first responders". So people vote in a
lottery system. A decade later the funds are being used who knows where?
--
---------------
Scall5
jdeluise
2024-10-09 03:49:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scall5
Post by jdeluise
Post by Scall5
Valid point you have Sawfish. Thanks for the follow up!
As a libertarian, do you feel the federal government should be
providing any assistance for the devastation from Helene, and
soon
from Milton?
Well the USA Federal Government has been (supposedly) taxing
it's
citizens to support agencies like FMEA to aid those in
distress. So
yes, FMEA needs to stand up BIG time and offer aid in times like
this.
That being said, anytime the Federal Government (or individual
states
for that matter) create a tax to *only* fund a single entity it
quickly is a stash fund for the GOP/Democrat Duopoly to raid
monies
for other reelection items. Social Security is a great
example. Even
in the early 1980's Reagan was mentioning that Social Security
was
being raided for other federal expenditures.
State run lotteries are another example of state's
mismanagement. "It
will only go to the schools and first responders". So people
vote in a
lottery system. A decade later the funds are being used who
knows
where?
Let me reframe the question, because obviously FEMA is going to
support relief efforts for the current disasters. Ideally how
would a libertarian system deal with natural disasters in general?
Specifically what would be the federal government's role?

I don't know if you subscribe to this view, but I've read other
libertarians say that the role of the federal government should be
limited to enforcing contracts between individuals and their
insurance carriers, and that's IT. But I'm not sure what
enforcement would look like if said insurance company was corrupt
and, say, spent/wasted/stole all the premiums ahead of time and
had nothing to cover the cost of the disasters. Sure, people
would probably be jailed and the market would adjust eventually,
but that alone wouldn't make the individuals whole. In a
libertarian system where there are few if any regulations, what
would prevent an insurance company from doing something like this?
Threats of jail? When has that ever worked? Greed is a lot
stronger than threat of jail, in my experience.
Sawfish
2024-10-09 05:05:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scall5
Post by jdeluise
Post by Scall5
Valid point you have Sawfish. Thanks for the follow up!
As a libertarian, do you feel the federal government should be
providing any assistance for the devastation from Helene, and soon
from Milton?
Well the USA Federal Government has been (supposedly) taxing it's
citizens to support agencies like FMEA to aid those in distress. So
yes, FMEA needs to stand up BIG time and offer aid in times like this.
That being said, anytime the Federal Government (or individual states
for that matter) create a tax to *only* fund a single entity it
quickly is a stash fund for the GOP/Democrat Duopoly to raid monies
for other reelection items. Social Security is a great example. Even
in the early 1980's Reagan was mentioning that Social Security was
being raided for other federal expenditures.
State run lotteries are another example of state's mismanagement. "It
will only go to the schools and first responders". So people vote in a
lottery system. A decade later the funds are being used who knows where?
Let me reframe the question, because obviously FEMA is going to support
relief efforts for the current disasters.  Ideally how would a
libertarian system deal with natural disasters in general? Specifically
what would be the federal government's role?
I don't know if you subscribe to this view, but I've read other
libertarians say that the role of the federal government should be
limited to enforcing contracts between individuals and their insurance
carriers, and that's IT.  But I'm not sure what enforcement would look
like if said insurance company was corrupt and, say, spent/wasted/stole
all the premiums ahead of time and had nothing to cover the cost of the
disasters.  Sure, people would probably be jailed and the market would
adjust eventually, but that alone wouldn't make the individuals whole.
In a libertarian system where there are few if any regulations, what
would prevent an insurance company from doing something like this?
Threats of jail?  When has that ever worked?
Departing here, to imply that threat of jail has not worked or worked
seldom I think misses the point that no measures can ensure perfect
compliance--and I don't think you meant that if threat of jail was
effective, there'd be NO, ZERO insurance malfeasance--we'd need to try
to get an idea of whether without the threat of jail the problems might
be one order of magnitude worse.

So that if, with jail possible, you might have 100 cases of insurance
fraud, but without threat of jail, you'd have perhaps 1000.

This kind of thing is really hard to determine, and yet I think that
there *is* a deterrent effect of some magnitude.


  Greed is a lot stronger
than threat of jail, in my experience.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It was public knowledge that Sawfish was a loner with strong
misanthropic tendencies: it was rare for him to even say a word to his dog."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Whisper
2024-10-05 10:01:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by *skriptis
Aside from that Australia does have a 'tall poppy syndrome' where we don't admire boastful attitudes.
But Djokovic didn't boast and he didn't get anything that your law and protocols didn't allow for.
As you've seen, several tennis players entered Australia on the same grounds week before him, Czech female player even played in some WTA tournament. And then she got deported later once Djokovic was >deported too.
The "boasting" in this whole case certainly couldn't be found on his side, I'd say Australia was a tall poppy in this case.
He was posting bulging biceps emojis and 'Idemo!' etc. I personally
liked it but could see he was taking unnecessary risks.
Post by *skriptis
Quiet champions like Laver, Borg, Edberg etc are much loved and admired because everyone can see they're great, don't need the players telling us they're great.
So you don't like Mohammad Ali or Trump or Ruby Rhod?
I like them all, I'm referring to the typical Australian culture. I
don't agree with it but know it well.
Post by *skriptis
I'm not. They bring in the big $$ and are special. If they don't get the extra $$ some administrator/investor gets more. If lesser players want the same privilege then they need to work harder and become better players. It's a democratic system, by and large.
There's nothing democratic in #1 receiving 2 millions appearance fee, and tournament champion receiving 0.3 millions.
But the opportunity is there for any player to become no.1 and win
slams, that's the democratic bit. Billionaires like Pegula and Navarro
have not won slams despite their extreme wealth.
Post by *skriptis
Money that was spent (bribe really) on #1 and given to him under the table could have been spent on proper tournament prize money, attracting overall better players and bolstering competition and allowing lesser player to reach financial stability and progress faster and better.
Luckily at least we have dozen plus mandatory tournaments to avoid such unfair practices.
But overall, this is weak spot of tennis.
But they sell the tickets and generate the most interest.
Post by *skriptis
I think Novak should have been allowed to play. I could see he was going to be kicked out - it didn't have to happen, should have gone 'no comment' mode. He would have been into 2nd week before anyone knew what was going on.
Yeah, that was my original question but as you've seen, the Czech player(s) were deported weeks after they had entered Australia and played in tournaments.
Having seen what happened to Czechs, my point is that it was unavoidable.
They only got kicked out after the Novak thing blew up.
Post by *skriptis
Your point is that Djokovic's Instagram message "looking forward to Australia" is what set things in motion.
Let's agree to disagree.
If he stayed off social media and didn't talk about covid I'm certain he
would have played and had high chance of winning. Of course this
doesn't necessarily mean he would have more than 24 slams today as the
enforced breaks may have helped him win later slams he may have
otherwise lost.
Post by *skriptis
Smoking weed is not the same as flouting health regulations that effect millions.
We're running in circles.
I thought we settled for the truth?
Djokovic wasn't deported because he broke any rule or flout anything.
He even won court case.
Shouldn't have even gone that far. Once the politicians saw votes he
was a shot duck no matter what the judges rule.
Post by *skriptis
He was deported by your government simply because governments can do it. They extrapolated that Djokovic not being particularly pro-vax and a visible public persona who is not vaxxed is damaging to their oppressive regime.
So even though Djokovic broke no rules, he was provoking them with their presence so they kicked him out.
Exactly. He underestimated his influence, doesn't extend much outside
tennis arena.
Post by *skriptis
That's why I disagree with you on saying "he should have stayed mum".
It was never about anything he said, rather, what he was turned into, a symbol for freedom. Vaxxers did that to him, even though he didn't want it, he minded his own business, he was pussy-like neutral, never said anything such as "hey people, don't take these shots" or stuff like that.
He has a history of flouting the rules, eg that tournament he hosted in
Croatia with zero social distancing rules etc and everyone got sick.
Not a good look for a neutral stance.
Post by *skriptis
That's why I took Phelps comparison. Chinese government could have likewise disliked Phelps as he was a weed smoker and said, we don't want this guy in our country, he sets bad example for our kids.
And then there would be no 20 or how many gold medals for him.
Look I personally don't agree with how he was treated, but he shot
himself in the foot with how it all looked to suffering Australians. He
was never going to win that fight in a country like Australia or USA.
Post by *skriptis
If millions of people are forced to take vax and isolate for 4 months straight they aren't going to be happy watching privileged public figures like Novak blatantly flout the rules.
Again, he satisfied your rules, that you set. As did those other tennis players. Who were all later kicked out with Djokovic.
You didn't know to play by the rules, he did.
At least in USO case, it was clear from the start that previously having COVID is not enough to get medical exemption to enter USA so Djokovic didn't even try.
Americans were at least clear.
So you see Australia did actually try and succeeded in getting him in -
great job by Tilley. Just needed Novak to keep mum so people had to
guess at his stance, most wouldn't have cared in that case.
Post by *skriptis
Millions would have done what Novak did, but didn't have the option.
What do you mean by that, millions would have come to Australia using medical exemption? That's what you said?
I mean millions took the vax to keep their jobs and gain other
privileges, else they wouldn't have. They saw Novak getting away with
it, an elite with special rules etc. Bad look.
Post by *skriptis
But I know you mean "millions would not have taken the vaccine", right?
Yep
Post by *skriptis
Well. If that's the case, you should have fought for your rights, not cheer to abuse the others who are free.
It was a strange time in history, no time to settle arguments in
absolute terms, just follow the medical advice and do what our leaders
say.

Anyway end of the day it may have been a positive outcome for Novak. He
want past Fed/Nadal in slam race and even won gold medal this year.
This may or may not have happened had he played all the way through with
no breaks to recharge etc. Nobody knows.
*skriptis
2024-10-05 10:27:00 UTC
Permalink
He was posting bulging biceps emojis and 'Idemo!' etc. I personally liked it but could see he was taking unnecessary risks.
Let's say he didn't do that at all.

He'd still be at some press conference pre-tournament and he'd get asked whether he was vaxxed.

He'd have answered honestly and same shit would have happened.
If he stayed off social media and didn't talk about covid I'm certain he would have played and had high chance of winning. Of course this doesn't necessarily mean he would have more than 24 slams today as the enforced breaks may have helped him win later slams he may have otherwise lost.
Yeah, no point in counting "potential slams".

We've seen his motivation plummets after achieving major goals.

CGS and FO in 2016, bottom rock afterwards.

So logically, slam record, CGS record and now Olympics means he's drained and would have been earlier had he achieved them sooner.
He has a history of flouting the rules, eg that tournament he hosted in Croatia with zero social distancing rules etc and everyone got sick.
Now that's total bullshit and again, I'm baffled by the cultural differences. I've seen this being used against him many times in western media.

What does he have to do with that?

It was a legal event, allowed by our health authorities. You think Djokovic calls the shots in Croatia?

And that was not the only sporting event at the time in Croatia. Also elections were held early to take advantage of the summer. It was summer, number of infections deceased and frankly we didn't have real COVID outbreak in 2020 spring anyway, due to early shutdown.

Real COVID started here in late 2020.




Bottom line, why do you (in broad sense westerners) think it was Djokovic's failure or responsibility for pushing to have such event?

Bizarre.
Anyway end of the day it may have been a positive outcome for Novak. He want past Fed/Nadal in slam race and even won gold medal this year. This may or may not have happened had he played all the way through with no breaks to recharge etc. Nobody knows.
Yes.
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